Understanding nervous system regulation with Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook

Laura Petix 0:00 Hello, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited to be sitting here today with Dr. Joy Maalik as Brooke. She is the author of a kid’s book about nervous system regulation. And if you know me, you know, I love all things a kid’s Co. And our books complement each other so well that I just had to have her on the podcast. And so she’s here with us today. Welcome, Dr. Joy. How are you? Speaker 1 0:26 I’m good. Thank you, Laura, really for giving me this opportunity. And I absolutely love how our books are just like made for each other. It’s so wonderful to share this space with you. Laura Petix 0:40 I think even before I think it was when my book was being edited, or InDesign, so I hadn’t come out yet. I think yours came out before mine. And I said, that I already knew before I even purchased your book that I needed to talk to you and needed the book and needed to have you on my podcast. So this has been being planned in my mind for quite some time. And as of course, as soon as I read it, it did not disappoint. So we’re going to get into about, we’re going to get into the book a little bit, and talk about why it’s important for kids to understand nervous system regulation and hear how you like to teach families and kids about it. But before we get into that, too, can you tell us a little intro about yourself where you’re from, and maybe how you even found yourself in this particular niche and how you decided to write the book. Speaker 1 1:30 So before I introduce myself, I always start with a brief, calming, mindful moment, because talking about regulation and dysregulation can sometimes bring up stuff. So let’s take a really brief moment if you can put your hand on your heart, and one hand on your stomach. And if it’s safe, you can close your eyes, if that feels right for your nervous system. And just settle your attention on your breath. really notice the inhale and the exhale. And if you can picture either someone who you love so much, or picture someone who brings you so much loving energy, and just feel all of that connection, all of that safety, and let that be with you. Knowing that we all get dysregulated or we can all learn from it, and repair. Just taking a few moments to fill that green energy towards yourself. Unknown Speaker 2:52 Let’s take one more breath. Okay, thank you. Laura Petix 3:02 That was fantastic. Thank you for starting us off that way. Because like you said, it’s these are, these are pretty heavy topics. And as we’re thinking about our own dysregulation, that’s that’s what we have going on. So go ahead and introduce yourself, and we’ll get started. Speaker 1 3:17 Yeah, I mean, I love talking about the book and the process. But I’m a licensed clinical psychologist, my practice is in Southern California. And I specialize in providing neurodiversity affirming assessments. And I also do parenting support and a lot of supervision and training, kind of around this work. I’m also biracial, my dad immigrated from India, and my mom is white. So I really value integrating those two kind of cultures and ways of seeing into my work as well. And then how I got to this book, it’s just, you know, really, I’ve always had a very relational approach to the work that I do, whether it’s therapy or assessment or with parents, and then diving into things like polyvagal theory, and attachment theory, just really seeing how much our regulation and our nervous system is at the core of our experiences. This is the book that I wanted as a clinician with the families and parents that I work with. This is the book that I want one wanted as a parent, so it was really for something I wanted to offer as like a start to understanding nervous system regulation. Laura Petix 4:45 I love how the conversation in the past five to 10 years has become more centered around nervous system and I think that’s where our different professions can all intersect and I have been hearing a lot of conversation around interoception, and how that relates to trauma and neuroception and the feelings of safety. And that has really allowed a lot of occupational therapists to feel more equipped to talk to parents in a way that it felt more concrete to them. Because a lot of the sensory stuff otherwise has felt so like fluffy and like really hard for them to grasp. But when we’re like, No, this is our nervous system. And we have tangible examples of heart rate and breath rate, then it kind of allows them to see feelings and emotion which feels fluffy and hard to talk about. Sorry, I don’t use a better word than fluffy. But I know parents talk about it like that, because it’s hard, you know, to talk about feelings. And especially when we’re thinking about regulating our kids, we only think about the top level behavior, how their emotions are displayed. And it really is back to our nervous system. Speaker 1 5:58 Exactly. And that’s, it’s really helping, you know, all of us, because it’s a shared human experience that we have, we all have a nervous system, but there’s so much underneath when a child is overwhelmed and angry or shut down. And I think it really encourages more compassion for the child and for us, too. So that’s really, I think, at the heart of it. For me, Laura Petix 6:29 the nervous system regulation piece is usually that bit of information that helps parents see that their kids aren’t just doing something, because they’re wanting to do it to be bad, or to annoy someone or to you know, get attention. That’s really, really the missing piece for so many parents. So such an important topic. I’m curious about so you’re a parent? How many kids do you have? Unknown Speaker 6:57 I have two kids, Laura Petix 6:59 you have two kids? Did you have this vast knowledge of nervous system regulation before you became a parent? Speaker 1 7:07 Um, it was sort of simultaneously like, I’ve been a psychologist before I became a mom. So there was always this wanting to understand like, what’s underneath? And like, what’s the most effective parenting approach for the clients that I work with, but also, like, in my own journey in becoming? Laura Petix 7:32 Yeah, I mine is sort of similar. I’ve been an OT since before I was a parent. But my narrowed and focus on nervous system regulation, and what dysregulation sounds like from a nervous system perspective has changed greatly. And I don’t, I can’t speak for you. But I experienced more dysregulation as a parent than I did. Before I was a parent. And now that I talked about it so often, I’m so aware of it. And I think it makes me a better parent, do you feel the same? Just using this knowledge, teaching other parents and taking it to heart? Speaker 1 8:06 I mean, absolutely. And I think, you know, I see parents come in, where they feel so helpless, or they have a lot of guilt or shame. And I think, you know, it’s understanding nervous system regulation isn’t just for how we want to respond and understand our kids. But it’s really healing for us as adults, because I do think the journey of parenthood is this opportunity where kids are mirroring, our kids are mirroring to us what we haven’t healed, what we haven’t integrated ourselves. So when we can have those tools have that understanding, we become more whole and integrated through becoming a parent, I Laura Petix 8:53 read that at the end of your book, I think it was your outro or something, and I was like, I’m so glad she included that piece. It reminds me of how I always say dysregulation is contagious, you know, so is regulation, but dysregulation is probably even more powerfully contagious. So we have to be really, really mindful of containing our dysregulation and, and that and the energy that’s that’s outside of us, right? I would love to know, in your practice or in your practice in the past when you would work with families, and they come to you maybe like the first day they’re here for supporting their child’s behaviors or challenges in school. At what point in their journey do you bring up the talk about nervous system regulation? Is this like, day one for not getting past this? Is this like, let’s feel it out. Let’s build the report first, maybe next week, like what point in the in your practice? Do you bring this up in session with clients? Speaker 1 9:57 Such I love that question. You So I’m pretty upfront like this is the, the approach is that it’s very regulation based. It’s reflective, it’s, you know, resiliency informed. So they kind of know that coming into the work that this is what we’re going to focus on. And I provide that psychoeducation first, because we want to make sure we have that same language and like, what do we really mean, when we’re talking about regulation and dysregulation? And so yeah, I start right away, diving into it. And I could share a little bit now kind of how I talk to parents about it. Would that be helpful? Yes, I would love to hear it. So talking about nervous system regulation, we really want to understand what do we mean mean by the nervous system. So the nervous system is really managing our everyday experience or digestion or sensations or feelings. It’s keeping us alive, and it’s millions of years old. And what I focus on is the part of the nervous system that’s around protection and survival and safety. So, as humans, we are wired for connection. That’s how we feel safe, when we feel connected with ourselves. And we feel connected with each other. When we’re in a regulated space. And in the book, I talk about this as the green energy. And that comes from people before me, but it’s a great this color system is really helpful. So the green energy, it’s not that stress isn’t coming at us. It’s not that hard things aren’t happening. It’s that we have enough safety and connection that we can manage that stress, right, that we can continue on, we can take care of ourselves, we can still when we’re regulated, we can learn, we can problem solve, we’re creative. You know, kids might say, I feel like this is a fresh breeze or I feel free. So that’s the space of regulation when you can really explore. So alternatively, when our brain and body experience something that overwhelms us, this could be threatening, this could be something from our past, a memory coming, right? This can be rejection, this can be bullying, this can be for young kids being really hungry or sick. There’s so many things that can overwhelm our nervous systems. And it can vary for all of us. But those two main tracks of the protective stress responses is the fight flight, which we call the red energy. This is when your nervous system activates. And this is happening out of your and your child’s conscious awareness, the nervous system takes over. This isn’t like an intentional thing that we’re trying to do. Right, there’s a threat and our nervous system responds quickly. This is a feeling if we want to yell we want to criticize we want to get away, the stress wants to come out to keep us safe. And for a few moments, it does make us feel safer. But in the end, there’s not enough at that green energy, we’re actually not feeling safe in that moment. And then the other track is what we call the blue energy. This is more the shutdown the withdrawing. So the energy lessons, the energy retreats to make us feel safe. So the feeling of this can be where we might feel tired or lonely. It really protects us by minimizing our energy. And you know, kids have sad like, red feels like they’re it’s really hot, they’re going really fast. Blue feels like frozen, you’re it’s really slow. So that gives you a sense of what you know, the shared human experience that we’re all experiencing. And, you know, I think what I talked to parents about is that we really want to understand our triggers. Right? That’s our responsibility as adults and as parents, and what really brings us to green energy because we can’t help our child regulate. If we’re dysregulated. We just can’t because like what you said, dysregulation is contagious, but so is regulation and that’s how they learn it is through our regulation. Laura Petix 14:46 I really, really love how you describe that. And I want to go back to how you were describing the green energy and to clarify something so I’m going to ask you to clarify for parents so the goal is then for kids to under stand that. So is it possible for you to feel scared, feel upset, feel sad, and stay in green energy, it doesn’t always mean that your body has to get really hot and move really fast when you’re scared, right now, that’s what’s happening automatically. But they’re, they can have the tools and they can practice skills to stay in green energy and have a certain emotion. Is that a good way of it? Yeah, Speaker 1 15:32 so absolutely, that’s so beautiful. So the nervous system is designed to go up and down through all those different tracks, right. So all day, you know, we wake up in the morning, we have like a rush of cortisol, right? So there’s a little bit of red there, but there’s enough green that we can use that energy. So I like to think how I talk to kids about it is that you want your green energy to hug your red and your blue. And when we have like green and red together enough green with that. That’s playfulness, right? That’s silliness. That’s like sports, right? If we have enough green with the blue, that’s when you know, I really think of it is when I can be reflective and meditate and have this kind of ease. So none of it is bad. And, and you can be regulated and still have strong emotions. Yeah, great, I, Laura Petix 16:32 I love that visual of having your green energy, hug the other ones. And teaching kids, what you also include in the book that there’s really nothing wrong with you, when you have red energy, when you have blue energy, it’s just a matter of being aware of it. And I also like teaching parents and kids that just because you’re in the red energy, which, you know, we could talk, we could say the sympathetic nervous system, that part of the fight or flight mode, you you activate that when you’re warming up to exercise, you’re getting your body pumped up, and but you are actively controlling that. So I would technically say my, my energy, when I say my energy is still green, though, physiologically, what’s happening is congruent with what a sympathetic nervous system would be gearing so that my body can prepare to move and go fast and get into action. Is that still the right way of understanding it? Yeah, Speaker 1 17:27 absolutely. And there’s like, really, if you can like picture, you know, a graph where the nervous system is going a little into the sympathetic or a little into the red and then back into the green, that’s a different experience, like your brain, all the parts are still working together. But when you go full only into the read, there’s no more safety and connection, you’re in that lower survival brain, you’re thinking, your planning brain, it’s not online anymore. So that’s, you know, when I talk about the reason for understanding this, that we can have compassion, when we’re dysregulated, we often do or say things that we regret. And that’s because our brain is not integrated in that moment, like, Dan Siegel calls it flipping your lid. Right? So that’s a great way to understand like, we’ve all been there. So yeah, I’ll just pause there. Laura Petix 18:28 Yeah, I agree. And I think that’s a really, I think that’s why this understanding of the nervous system is really a foundational, good starting point for parents and kids. And then when we understand how all nervous systems work, how this is just how we are wired as humans as a species, and then understand how individuals can kind of diverge and take different routes and how there might be little nuance to how large their window of green energy is, or how easy it is, right? That’s when we start talking about neurodiversity, and how some nervous systems have a really small window of green energy, meaning it’s, it’s harder for them to stay in that energy, it’s much easier for them to be pushed out of it. And it may take a lot of extra effort to get them back into that green energy. And so what I’m alluding to here are the kids who become dysregulated from you know, a hyperactive perspective, maybe you’ve got kids who can’t sit still can’t quiet their mind, they’re moving a lot around, maybe they have a lot of jittery and anxious behaviors. There’s also the kids who have really really big emotions and have a hard time kind of staying safe with their emotions, it just kind of as an automatic send to that red energy which is so as you were just talking about it’s okay to dip in a little bit to it, but they just go straight into like the deep deep red. And so that I Find is almost like the level two acknowledgement, or for those parents who have kids that need a little bit of a different approach, or a nuanced approach to behavior is understanding this piece that now you know how our how nervous systems work, here’s how it might be a little different for your child, and then the tools to support them. Speaker 1 20:21 Absolutely, that’s beautiful. And so, you know, part of in my practice is a lot of assessment for kids who have some form of neuro divergence. And what I talked about in those reports, and throughout the assessment is when I’m noticing what triggers their dysregulation, right, so that parents can really understand that. So that’s one piece is like really knowing the triggers. But I also, this is where your book, I think is so important, because kids who have neuro divergence are managing a neurotypical world all day, right? And that is so taxing on their nervous system. So they’re going to have more need for additional ways that build green energy for them. So, you know, I know, you’ve talked about just things after school that can really build their sense of regulation, and ease, because they’ve been working over time all day to manage, whether it’s learning whether it’s attention, whether it’s the social piece, they have been working so much harder. And that’s when you know, your book where their peers and families can have more compassion and empathy. When kids can feel that within the school, they’re there all day, right? When they can feel that support and understanding from the teachers from their peers. You know, I’ve seen parents come in where their children are specifically excluded from things that parents are doing, right, because there’s this misunderstanding of what’s going on for this child. So I that is so important that understanding how taxing it is for our little ones, especially with neuro divergence. And Laura Petix 22:30 it goes back to what you talked about in your book about how we need to feel a sense of connection, in order to feel safe. And when we feel isolated, or especially with our experience or feel isolated from our social peers, that automatically is going to make us our nervous system inherently will feel triggered, dysregulated unsafe, and then perpetuate more of the behaviors and then perpetuate more of the stigma associated with it and the talking and the further. And it’s a it’s a big cycle. So I love how you said, if we can change us like both of our books, right? So at the end of my book, it says. So what we want you to do is to celebrate neurodiversity. If you see a different behavior, let’s not play our stairlifts think, hey, you know, that’s neurodiversity. And yours talks about the idea of, if we can collectively create more of a green energy space, how wonderful would that be? And just so we can have a direct impact on people around us even without having to say anything at all, just by being more accommodating. being more aware of how we approach them of how we may isolate them, it’s such a powerful message that it makes, it makes me excited to think of people hearing this message and kids hearing this message all around. I have kind of a question that I’ve been seeing a lot of talk about from other accounts, and I’ve never really looked, I guess I’ve never really looked into the science of it. Or maybe this is the semantics of it. But do you believe is there a way to, quote heal your nervous system, or heal the nervous system it in the sense of take a nervous system that tends to always be dysregulated or chronically dysregulated based on a certain neuro type and make it so that it’s less of that because I kind of struggle with the line between, you know, accepting the neuro type we have and building coping stools and accommodating versus actively trying to, to heal or fix a nervous system. What are your thoughts on that as a clinician? Speaker 1 24:46 And I mean, that question is so important, and I think it goes to it really speaks to how we want kids with neurodiversity to feel that they’re enough. We don’t want to change them that It is so important, right? We don’t want services that changes our neurodivergent kids. So I just want to like note that. And then when it comes to the nervous system, I think what can be really painful for adults and kids who have had toxic increased stress for whatever reason, is that they will go into a protective stress response more easily and more quickly and feel helplessness around that, we all really want to be in this place of enough green energy. And when you’re constantly feeling dysregulated, it is really exhausting on the nervous system, it is a lot for the people around you. So with that, it’s really finding all the ways to build that green energy. So it is the code the coping skills. And I think there are some wonderful supports that do shift the nervous system and do impact the wiring. So you know, it’s so quote, whatever fires together wires together, right? So the work that OTS do, and that therapists do, right, that’s what we’re doing. We’re giving these repeated, healing relational experiences, that then can wire that for the nervous system. So I do have a lot of faith and hope for nervous systems. They’re remarkable and they keep adapting. And then it’s the responsibility of all of us around these kids and supporting the parents, that they feel that safety and connection to build that green energy. Laura Petix 26:50 That That makes sense. That’s a really great way to explain it. So now that you touched on it a little bit about how your work with kids and what you would work with them. Can you talk about? So let’s take a specific case example that would that client that maybe you and I would both in theory share, right, I do a lot of referrals to clinical psychologists, for kids who tend to be described as more of the highly sensitive ones maybe emotionally reactive, whether it’s anxiety, SPD, autism, whatever the specific neuro type is, this child, let’s say, like a kindergarten or first grade child is having, you know, extreme meltdowns at home and at school, difficulty with transitions. Really, really big meltdowns and hard time. You know, in a social environment, sharing with friends, I am so curious what, whether it’s a typical session, or what you would focus on in more of a clinical psychology setting. Because I talk a lot on my end, and our professions absolutely overlap in so many ways, I definitely use a lot of the clinical psych, kind of social emotional talk with a lot more of the sensory regulation. But for parents, they often ask, which is the right place? Or where to start? Or what would the difference be, so that they know what would be a better fit for them? Could you give us a little glimpse into that? Speaker 1 28:23 Absolutely. And I really want parents to have this information, and I refer to OT very consistently, I think it is something that is so helpful for kids. So parents can reach out for different things from a psychologist, what I specialize in is comprehensive assessments. And within the assessment, we get this opportunity to understand the child’s unique profile. So we get a look at these different aspects of development. So then we can share what the parents share with the child or the school other providers. These are the child’s remarkable gifts, you know, things that come really easy for them. And then these are some things some vulnerabilities that maybe need some support. So with an assessment, we get a look at their cognitive development, how they process information, their learning style, attention and executive functioning, their memory, and then the social and emotional and their regulation. So we get it have this really clear picture. And with that comes recommendations, and especially with young kids, we know how they learn about the world is all through their sensory system. So often when there’s some type of neuro divergence or sensitivity or anxiety, often ot can be something very helpful, especially for these young kids, right. So that would be one type of recommendation. And maybe it’s recommendation for something like play therapy or speech therapy. So really, depending on what we learn about the child and the assessment, then we make really clear recommendations, you know, also provide things in the classroom things at school that would really benefit the child based on their profile. And then its recommendations for things at home or in the community. So the assessment really is a roadmap for families like here over the next couple years, are things that can really support your child, and not to change your child, but to support them so that they can navigate this world. So that’s one piece is the assessment, right? A lot of the work I’ve been doing is actually parenting support for parents who have kids with some form of neuro diversity or divergence. And they are just managing so much, depending on school systems, depending on community supports, you know, their own, what maybe has happened in their family and different generations related to it. So there’s a lot to navigate. And, you know, what we see is there’s there can be more dysregulation at home for these kids. And the parents are really needing support and compassion around that. And then, you know, a lot of psychologists or other therapists who work with kids, especially this younger age, play therapy can be really helpful, too. I think one of the biggest things that is saddest for me that I see with kids with neuro divergence, is the stress that’s internalized the shame that they’re feeling. And when they can have a therapist who is giving them those experiences of them feeling really seen, and through clay, right, there’s, I forget the exact number. But, you know, working out stress through play one time is like the same of like 20 times talking about it, something like that, but don’t quote me on the numbers. But it’s like that idea that through the play, there’s so much healing that’s happening. And when, you know, this therapist and outside person, it really allows that space for the child to just be and it often involves, like parents support to. Laura Petix 32:27 I was nodding along because I’ve heard that somewhere. And I’m reminded me I wanted to look that up, because I remember seeing that. And I was like, that’s huge that that’s actually studied. The part about play how important play is, but that, that that’s what I often tell parents, whether it’s through play therapy, like those kinds of things, because a lot of parents don’t understand the mechanism of it and of play and like why am I paying someone to like play like, how am I babysitter plays with them? Or how you know, I could or anything like that. And same with OT, which looks very play bass, and you peek into the OT clinic and like, what are they doing rolling around on there, they’re supposed to be like, Wait, we’re here because my kids having meltdowns like what’s going on. I always tell parents and trust the process, there are things happening inside that we are never going to be able to see. It takes time to build up these associations. It takes time for the nervous system to learn to relearn how to feel safe. And it’s going to take time then to apply that confidence of feeling safety and places outside of here. So trust the process. I think as parents, I’m guilty of this, of looking for the very tangible, objective goals of Is it is it working, they’re still melting down, they’re still having, that they’re still late to school every day, like the very objective things that I understand are also triggering to our nervous system. But don’t be so hasty and writing off a certain therapy or a therapist or intervention because it it quote feels like it’s not working without really understanding more of the process. So I always recommend having a conversation, of course, we would want to bring that up and understand the process further. But for anybody listening, it’s really a trust the process kind of thing, you’re not going to see. It’s in a sense, it’s like planting a seed, however, you don’t see it, like naturally grow as a real plant. You would right you would start sprouting and it gives you encouragement, it’s working. Let’s go. We don’t see it like that. It’s like you’re planting seeds, but then just one day, you’ve got this beautiful plant. So it’s a little counterintuitive, but that’s the message I like to tell parents. Speaker 1 34:36 I mean, I love that because that’s what I feel like CO regulation is it’s planting seeds. And you may not see that work of self regulation for a long time with your kids. And when they have someone who really specializes work there appear ot I mean, even I’ve seen a done with Playfair pee and I think OTS are probably doing something similar to is, in working with the shame, you can play out where the therapist makes the mistake. And really bring some playfulness and silliness, that that is shifting and rewiring the child experience of making a mistake. That would be like a little small example of what could happen in the therapy setting. Laura Petix 35:25 That’s great. I love that. So before we go, I want to tell everyone to be excited, because as you’re listening to this podcast, Dr. Joy and I have have an exciting collaboration going on. So with a kids co since we both have books, we think our books go so well together that we are hosting a giveaway. And so if you want to enter the giveaway, then you’re just going to go to a kid’s co so it’s at a kid’s co Instagram, and they will have a post there with our books. And then you can see the instructions for entering that giveaway. And she and I are also going to host a q&a, which I’m so excited about. It’s kind of like an ask the author. So what we’ll do is, it’s going to be online, and you can ask us questions further about, you know, how to talk to kids about these our respective subjects and bring up more of this conversation there. And we really look forward to connecting with you all that information to sign up for the q&a is also going to be in the link in the show notes. But I’m so excited to do that with you. Speaker 1 36:29 So excited, I cannot wait. And I love talking about this. And I especially love talking about it with you. And then to have parents, that’s my favorite is to just hear parents questions. And yeah, it’s really exciting. Yes, Laura Petix 36:46 more more awareness of this, and I will never stop. So I think I think it’s great, both the things that we’re doing. So I’m excited to be in your circle. So thank you so much for joining us today. Dr. Joy, can you let everyone know where they can find you all put all those links below. But if you could just call out the best places for people to learn more from you and potentially work with you as well. Speaker 1 37:06 Absolutely. So my website is very long, but it’s Dr. Joy, and then my last name, Maalik hasbrouck.com. And that will get you to all the services that I provide. And then my Instagram is at Dr. Joy underscore compassionate parenting. So you can follow me there to rate Laura Petix 37:29 I look forward to collaborating more with you. Thank you everyone for listening. And let us know if you liked the episode. We have some posts on Instagram if you want to ask Dr. Joyce and questions like she said, give her a follow. We’ll be there hanging out. So thanks for listening. Bye. Bye. If you enjoyed this podcast, please consider rating it and leaving a review which helps other parents find me as well. Want to learn more from me. I share tons more over on Instagram at the OT butterfly. See you next time. Transcribed by https://otter.ai